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In this special panel edition recorded at the InsureTech Insights 2025 the panel, including Cytora's Head of North America Zaheer Hooda, have a forward-looking conversation on the evolution of the industry from InsurTech 2.0 to 3.0. Together, they break down how AI, personalisation, and digital partnerships are reshaping the future of insurance delivery. From embedding trust in AI-driven workflows to aligning regulatory frameworks with innovation, this episode is packed with practical insights. Tune in for a candid discussion on what it takes to drive transformation, without losing sight of insurance’s core promise: protection.
Listen to the full episode here
Juan de Castro : Hello, my name is Juan de Castro and you're listening to Making Risk Flow. Every episode, I sit down with my industry-leading guests to demystify digital risk flows, share practical knowledge, and help you use them to unlock scalability in commercial insurance.
Idan Tamir: Good afternoon, everyone. Super excited to be here and to welcome you to our session from Insurtech 2.0 to 3.0. What is the future of insurance? The title of our panel is more than just a catchy phrase. It reflects a real shift in the industry. Over the past decade, we've seen waves of digital transformation, from online disruption and automation to data-driven underwriting. But now we are entering a new chapter, ones that not just about digitising what was, but reimagining what could be. So today, we're not just asking what's next, we're asking how we build it together. My name is Idan Tamir. I'm the VP Corporate Development at Harel insurance and Finance, Israel's leading insurance group. And I also lead GUTS, our innovation and investment hub, where we work closely with both startups and global partners to rethink how insurance can evolve in the age of digital transformation. So we've got an amazing panel with us today, and I'm sure this is going to be a dynamic and interesting conversation. So before we dive in, let's go around quickly. Everyone will tell us their name, role, company, and one sentence of what you are currently focusing on. Let's start with you, Nicholas.
Nicholas Chen: Hi, everyone. I'm Nick. I'm with Accenture, and we focus on helping our clients reinvent their businesses, leveraging technology, analytics, and AI.
Camilla Serna: Hi, I'm Camilla Serna. I am the Global Revenue Officer for Chubb’s Digital Business, and I focus on new business models and new distribution of exciting products that we're bringing to markets, primarily embedded.
Ben Madick: Hi, I'm Ben Madick, CEO of Matic, Personal Lines Digital Brokerage, focused on betting inside banks and lenders. And currently, I'm personally focused on trying to figure out what's next.
Fred Blumer: My name is Fred Blumer. I'm the CEO and co-founder of a company called Mile Auto. We do pay-per-mile auto insurance. I'm also the CEO of Porsche Auto Insurance, which is an affiliated company of Mile. And we are focused on loss ratios. I mean, it's insurance. We're focused on underwriting good insurance.
Zaheer Hooda: Zaheer Hooda, head of North America Sales and Operations. Cytora. Cytora is primarily focused with working with global leading insurers, brokers, to help them transition from manual risk flows where a lot of unnecessary capacity is being deployed to digital risk flows where the capacity is focused primarily on value-added activities for the underwriters or claims handlers.
Idan Tamir: Thank you for that. So before we jump into the future, let's take a quick look back to understand the foundation we're building on. So the first question, looking back at Insurtech 2.0, what were its biggest achievements and limitations and how are those shaping the shift to 3.0? So I guess, Nicholas, I'd love to hear your take on this and feel free to interrupt and to say whatever all the panel.
Nicholas Chen : The reality is Insurtech 2.0, 3.0, it means different things to different people. But I think one thing that everybody will agree with is the amount of change and the speed and the opportunities over the last 10 years have been absolutely phenomenal. And 2.0, if I were to reflect, and we work with many different clients, people are at all different levels of maturity. But what 2.0 really did was for many organisations, it started to build on those foundational capabilities. When people started to really understand what could Insurtech do in 1.0, I think you would see Insurtech that may not have had that domain knowledge, they'll look at the insurance value chain and say, oh, that could have been done in a better way. Or that doesn't make sense. That was stupid. But in 2.0, across the value chain, whether it be underwriting, whether it be distribution, marketing, claims, people really understood intimately those processes in the business, and they were able to bring in those capabilities to really move that needle. And we've seen some really impressive things across the globe with our clients. And not to say that it's over, I would say that with all of that, some of the leading players have been able to really modernise, get onto the cloud. They have been able to clean up their data, making sure the data quality is good, availability, usability. I've seen some clients figure out hundreds of use cases to push out into the organisation. A lot of tests and learn POCs. The point is, with 2.0, almost all of our clients, they understand it. Now, where they are in the foundation, I have completed that journey, absolutely not. But I think one interesting point, if I were to reflect on everything I've seen is, you have the leading insurers, and then you have insurers that are catching up. But when it comes to modernisation and touching the legacy systems and the tech debt, I would say in 2.0, we scratched the surface. That hasn't all been done yet. All right? It's still being addressed. It's still a work in progress. But when we move into 3.0, now, I was thinking about what 3.0 means. And 3.0, without a doubt, I think a lot of people instantly will come to mind and push Agentic AI. But for Agentic and AI it becomes even more apparent that those foundational capabilities are so critical. So if you did not modernise your legacy systems, the reality is the integration with all of your databases, all of that is still really, really important. And with 3.0, if I were to look at where we're heading right now, it's really about real personalisation, speed, efficiency, consistency, and it's all moving really fast.
Idan Tamir: Thank you for that. So the next one is going to be a fun one. It's going to be a fire round. The question is, in your view, what defines Insurtech 3.0? So this time, we're going to start with Zaheer. We're going to say a few words each, and then you can interrupt each other. Feel free.
Zaheer Hooda: So first, thank you, Nick, for laying the baseline of what 2.0 is so we can answer this question. I would say 3.0 is more focused on automating the business workflows, kind of the end-to-end mindset that enables the carriers, brokers, whoever, to be a bit more self-learning. Like, how do you build those feedback loops internally?
Fred Blumer: Yeah, I actually had to write a few things down. I'm thinking four or five words. I wanted to be concise. So if you'll excuse me, I do have a note card. So I said, 3.0 is responsive, highly segmented, consumer-controlled. And Nick, that's similar to what you said, but consumer-controlled and invisible.
Ben Madick: I think Insurtech 3.0 is like cable television and unbundling, cutting the cord, kind of rethinking about how to put together the policies and coverages that consumers need or don't need and allowing them sort of information, the process, and the technology to buy it their way and consume it the way they want it.
Camilla Serna: So I also came with my cheat sheet and thought about advanced distribution. What does that mean? More personalisation and targeting with AI and moving from the Microinsurance that we have seen embedded to more sophisticated products that are transacted on the glass. And finally, that leads to ecosystem expansion. So the invisible part of the entrance or making it contextual resonates with me.
Nicholas Chen: Without me going on too long, some words that come to mind, speed, consistency, efficiency, and I can't help but say cognitive brain.
Idan Tamir: I love that. So it takes us to the next question. What are the emerging technologies that will shape the future of Insurtech? Is it just AI? We are hearing a lot of the buzzword Generative AI, but we know that innovation, it doesn't stop there. So Zaheer and Ben, I'd love to hear your opinion about it.
Ben Madick: It's hard to say it's not AI. I think AI is obviously a huge part of it. The transformation will probably last beyond our grandchildren's lives, seeing like the outcome and the changes that are made from the speed at which AI can be deployed now. I really think that from a consumer and again, the place I come from is personal lines and distribution. I think that consumers have yet to even see any part of AI support what they're doing. We are on the back end and everyone in the industry is working hard to figure out how AI can support us. But I really don't know that it's touched what the consumers can and being able to predict what they need, when they need it, how often they need it is a part of AI that I think will really start to define the future. And sort of how that comes into play, you could think about buying a product today, you go to five different sites and you see suggestions of other products and what you may want to watch next. But there's certain places that do it really well. We were talking on Netflix before. They know what you want to watch, comes up in your feed, looks like something you want to see. And I think from a consumer behaviour standpoint, if a customer puts in their name to an online field if they use an uppercase letter for their first name or a lowercase letter for their first name, it's a signal of risk. And think about how I want to now maybe present the next page to that person being a quote or being a educational piece and making that interaction 100% customisable using AI to make it be exactly for that person. So the user experience, the purchase experience, and how a consumer will interact with the technology will be different for every single customer kind of going forward, not just their use case being different. The actual experience will be different for every single customer.
Zaheer Hooda: I like that because I think a few points. It's really difficult to talk about what's another emerging tech, the AI yesterday or LLMs and now Agentic AI and God knows what's next, right? But I think the question is, what do these Insurtech 3.0 emerging technologies have to do for organisations to be able to adopt? So I think that this new phase, from all the learnings that we've had, is going to be more about how do you partner in deep collaboration to be able to build scalable operating models, right? Where tech players are working, vendors are working with carriers to be able to deploy this. So three specific pieces, right? One, I think what you mentioned, Ben, which is predictable, but I think one aspect of that another way is instead of just having data, how is the data providing some sort of actionable insight? So whoever is using it, and I think we're closer to that than ever. It may not cover all of the use cases, but you see more often where if it's the underwriter or claim handler, you could provide them some level of insights from all the kind of processing that you do of what comes into their queue. And by the way, Cytora went through a similar journey, right? We started as a data player, and then we quickly realized that, I think in 2020, that without being able to operationalise the data, you can't really move the needle. So that's where we then shifted into digital intake risk flow space. Second, it's this workflow point earlier where I think we're shifting away from everyone getting excited about point solutions. Oh, that's cool. Let's create another dashboard. Let's digitise one more document. But more about what is the business end-to-end workflow and how can we automate this? Because the last thing you want is we're trying to create an operating model, and the last thing you want is more layers on your tech stack. And then in seven years, another discussion about tech debt and how we'd handle it, right? And then the final piece that I'll say is it's this build versus buy discussion that comes up when we talk about tech, emerging tech, especially in our queue. I think it's a little bit more gray than that. It's how do you enable the carrier, the broker's build journey, like to the scalable operating model? How do you partner with them truly to be able to say, all right, great, here's a platform that actually lets you pace and build at your own pace, that's your own time, and not being so vendor dependent. I think between those three areas, you're starting to get to more kind of end-to-end views of like, let me look at the whole value chain of how someone can come and help me scale this in a fast way across the organisation.
Ben Madick: And insurance always moves slow. We get paid to take risk, but we don't like taking risk. Do you think what you're talking about in the cycle can help us with all the data end-to-end, like make cycles faster? Instead of saying, let's wait two years to see how this is going to happen, or 10 years, or 15. Do you think it will make the cycles faster, we can take more risk, make more money?
Zaheer Hooda: So I think short answer is yes. And again, bias from kind of my position where I get to see him going into all these carriers where they're asking, like, show me the impact, show me the cycle time benefits. Is this actually going to change us? And fortunately, you could see things that extrapolate there, but until you don't do a deployment. So just the specific example, we see a lot of inputs that come into an organisation and to turn around a quote, one quote, or handle a claim. Let's say a claim comes in and it's a court date that's an urgent court date. That has to flow through so many levels and takes hours, sometimes days. We do that within hours now instead of days or weeks. So turning around a quote back to a broker. So my point, then if you can do that, then the next thing is you extrapolate that to be able to bind faster. Now you bind faster, therefore the customer is happier because they're getting the answer faster, right? And eventually incentives need to align because I think what I'm saying is more valid for like the smaller mid-sized market, at least in commercial insurance. Large, I think it will still take time. But in a small, no one wants to spend days on one risk. So I think you're starting to see that, but it'll get there.
Fred Blumer: So I've got a question. And Ben, you kind of alluded to it for a second. But Zaheer, you mentioned that consumers will be happier because they'll get quicker quotes. And our dealings with consumers, there's a lot of fear about AI. I mean, we're all professionals in the insurance industry. So we think, gee, AI is going to be wonderful even if we don't quite understand what it means. Count me in on that. But I don't think that we've done a good job explaining to consumers why AI is beneficial to them. Most consumers that I talk to feel like AI is going to be spying on them, a new type of Big Brother, something robbing them of their privacy. And so I think as an insurance industry, we have to do a good job explaining to customers what AI is, how it benefits them. And I started to say to humanise AI, and that's a contradiction in terms because AI is non-human or inhuman. But what can we do as an industry to make AI something more approachable for a consumer and let them see the value of it versus just as an industry? It's going to be good, and we're going to make more money and make it faster.
Camilla Serna: I can echo something that Ben said. I think it will come down to how the AI is used for personalisation, to have the right product at the right time in the right context. And so if we're offering them the right thing, like we're reading their mind, like you see on your Netflix recommendations, then they will be more open to acceptance of the use of AI for their own benefit to make it more seamless, particularly in digital distribution. But then it has scalability to other channels as well.
Idan Tamir: Thank you. I think also maybe the differentiation we need to do is that we need to look differently on the generations. Because the Gen Z will look differently on the products we're going to offer to them. So we need to think differently, I guess. More on that side too.
Zaheer Hooda: One more thing to add, I think just like any tech, often we get over-indexed on the tech itself, but really it's the business benefits. So like the Netflix recommendation you gave, no one sees the amazing recommendations as like, wow, look at that AI. It's just an amazing recommendation. So now bringing it back to insurance, it's like, oh, great. This carrier is giving me a custom quote to exactly my need extremely quickly. I like these guys. It's powered by AI, but they don't need to know that. I'm not saying that there isn't an AI piece that will impact the customer, but all of it isn't so required to educate the customer on every aspect of it. It's like the business benefit, the customer benefit at the net-net.
Idan Tamir: Thank you. So the next question, how can insurers balance the need for modernisation with the regulatory responsibilities? Camilla, you flagged this one as a core area in your work. Let's start with you and then we'll move to Fred.
Camilla Serna: In the context of personalisation and working with digital native platforms, which is a lot of what the business unit that I'm part of does, we have learned the importance of fractionalisation of products so that insurance becomes more a subscription that you can access relative to what you're doing in some ecosystem, particularly with fintechs or with e-commerce platforms. We're seeing it more in hospitality, travel, gig platforms, where we need to be very contextual and we need to be very specific to the needs of the vertical. It could be for small businesses, but it could be also for the consumers that are accessing a platform. And then we go from there. I'm curious to see how others feel about that direction of the future of insurance.
Nicholas Chen: Camilla, what I would add is, you know, for us, responsible AI is really important. And a big part of that is trust. A lot of times we focus on the customer trust. But even internally, there is, right? If you were a capital markets company, you were developing these models, there is a governance to make sure those models are right. But because certain parts of our businesses are not regulated that way, there could be potentially risks. And that might not just be financial risks. It could be reputational risks as well. So that's also really, really important.
Fred Blumer: Yeah, and as we look at new technologies, it's important to step back and look at it from the regulator's perspective. And regulators have a tough job. They're being inundated with new ideas and old ideas, what's been done before, what's never been done before. And so we need to be aware as the insurance industry of how to bring regulators in the regulatory environment along with us. And my background was in telematics in the early days of telematics. And with a lot of regulators, you would go to them and start talking about telematics and none of their fault, but it was Greek to them. And so it took a lot of education. And I think from an industry perspective, particularly with AI and a lot of the other types of technologies that we're thinking about using or already using, it's really important well in advance to start working with the regulatory environment, with the regulators themselves and the departments of insurance and start educating them. Before we ask them to approve a new technology, before we ask them to allow us to embed those technologies in our processes, we need to spend time with them. And I've been amazed over the years how receptive regulators are to a phone call and a visit. In fact, we've had numerous times where we've been thanked for just taking the time to come in and say, well, this is a new technology that's on the way. We'd love to talk to you about it. Just make sure you're aware. So I think as an industry, we need to focus on educating regulators, but not at the point where we're trying to get their approval for something new, but well in advance of that.
Camilla Serna: I agree with you, Fred. I think regulatory oversight cannot be an afterthought. So we work very closely with the regulators because often the evolution, AI or otherwise, more so in distribution, the evolution happens a lot faster than the regulators are able to update their requirements. And so there needs to be a balance and a conversation to strike and adjust properly based on how the technology is evolving, what is becoming possible, and then ensuring that consumers' understanding of the technology and what is going on is there and they have the proper protections and rights.
Ben Madick: But I think a big part of the regulatory environment today, especially in the U.S., is licensing and holding sort of approvals, you know, at state levels for products. It makes me think a little bit about taxi medallions. Are the licenses going to go away? Are medallions still as valuable as they used to be? The regulators pick-out New York, we're here, but like New York really wanted to keep the medallions in place and the rideshare cars pushed forward, moved in other markets, found adoption where they needed it, and then all of a sudden came back and was too late. So what's going to happen to the hundreds of thousands of licenses that are being overseen by regulators?
Camilla Serna: I don't know, there might be more emphasis on data usage and privacy, as we've talked about, which can be challenging to navigate. But I think also tech transcends borders. So it's not just about New York and the company I represent operates in 54 countries. And so it's making sure that we're considering international standards as well, because there are things to learn about how different markets have sandboxes and how they're putting emphasis or not as much on data usage and how it's being fed into malls.
Idan Tamir: Thank you. So we added the question, where are insurer startup partnerships actually working and where do they still break down?
Ben Madick: From my experience, I think the partnerships on the commercial side are great. They break down in technology because startups move fast and change things quickly and are dependent on legacy tech stacks from the other side of the partnerships. And I don't think that that is going to change soon. It's got to just take time to work through it.
Zaheer Hooda: I think this is related to the earlier what I was touching on too is that there's a couple on both sides of the aisle, right? On the vendor side, I think there has to be an appreciation of the complexity, the legacy, the tech debt to go in. Because when you go in and you propose something that's an extremely specific solution, the implication of that is multiple integrations and a lot of work for an organisation. And on the carrier side, it has to be seen as a partner. The mindset has to be of like, how can I partner with a vendor that allows me to scale? And what I mean by that is it's not a transactional mindset, right? Like if you go in asking for a point solution, you'll get the point solution. But if you go in and say, all right, look, we're doing an operational transformation. We're thinking about scaling. We know you have these two areas that can support. What else? How do we think about this? What are other partners that we can bring to the table? Because I don't think there's one partner either that's going to do it all, but it's not going to be 10 partners. It's likely going to be like two or three if I had to guess. And one is likely not likely either. So I think it's a little bit give and take on both sides of how they look at it in mindset.
Camilla Serna: Representing the carrier side for us is a matter of speed. How can we work with alignment of incentives? How can we agree on milestones with prospective partners? I am much more involved with distribution partnerships. And so we've created our own integration platform in order to focus on the partner experience and how to do more for the developers and software engineering teams of our partners so that we can more quickly get to the commercials and get to growing together into somebody's ecosystem. I think the flip side is we should apply that same partnership mindset to when Insurtech enablers are trying to work with us. But we have to do a fair amount of due diligence and make sure that we have aligned incentives in order to meet the milestones of the kinds of POCs.
Nicholas Chen: Those are all spot on points. I've seen a lot of really successful cases. And if you look at these Insurtech startups, many of these founders also came from the industry. And some of these people have focused on a specific part of the value chain. And they have a deep understanding of that. And I've seen success. Yeah, so we also run a fintech Innovation Lab. And we work very closely with these startups to really help them understand the organisations that they're trying to work with, to really understand their business, their culture, really understand the nuances of how you bring that technology in. And we've seen really, really good success. I've also seen challenges on the partnership side. So going back to the 2.0, 3.0, 2.0, you saw a lot more partnerships. Incumbent players trying to form partnership with digital native tech companies. And like you guys said, different pace. One has no tech debt, no legacy. Then you have a tech company that's moving at a really fast pace. I had a case with one of the Unicorn companies wanted to form a partnership with a very old company. And they could get something out in weeks. And this particular company, it would take them three months just to get the first POC out. And they made so much investments into that partnership. Everybody was frustrated. That deal almost broke because of that. So that different pace. So I think where we are now, I think companies have learned. They learn how to collaborate. And even this morning, listening to Rob Schimek sharing his whole Bolttech story and how he's not disrupting. We have a large protection gap globally. And how do you work with the incumbent players? Right. Actually, it's additive. So I think we're evolving. And there's a lot of good success stories.
Fred Blumer: Yeah, so that's interesting. This took a different direction than I thought it would be from a partnership perspective. Because when I think about partnerships, I'm thinking of non-traditional partnerships, not where a tech supplier is trying to sell something to a carrier. And Camille Serna, you referenced it for a second on the distribution side. But I think about partnerships from the distribution side, like what we do with Porsche to bring Porsche Auto Insurance to the market and other non-traditional players or companies and entities that don't play in the insurance industry that might be interested in having offerings for their particular market segment or their particular industry that can now add insurance as a potential offering. So I think of partnerships a little bit differently and would encourage the industry to think about non-traditional ways of pulling others into the insurance channel that are not accustomed to being in that channel.
Zaheer Hooda: This is one thing to build on what Nick said. I really like the point of it's not disruption. I don't like the word disruption is I think now it's like what are we doing together to solve this problem across the board? The disruption angle will cause angst across the board, right? Because it comes off with a mindset of I'm going to replace this process with a much better process that I know of versus like I don't get it. Your processes are complex, but like how do we work together and figure it out? So I think to me that's like the key of shifting from that to deep collaboration, I guess is the word.
Fred Blumer: Listen, I love that because I think of Insurtech 1.0 was exactly that where technology people that did not understand insurance decided they can come in and take over the insurance industry. Most of them failed miserably. And it takes that understanding that Nick, you were talking about from a 2.0 perspective is people that understand insurance that are getting involved and trying to improve and enhance insurance offerings, but based on their fundamental understanding of insurance. So that's a great point Zaheer, because I think early it was people that said, I'm a smart technology guy. I don't know anything about insurance, but I'm going to come in and disrupt everything. And most of them were not successful.
Idan Tamir: Thank you, Fred. So as a follow-up, we got a question from the audience. What do you believe won't change in the insurance industry over the next five years? That's interesting.
Nicholas Chen: We're still going to be paying claims. We're still in the business of protection. None of that changes. So it gets better. So even we talked about speed, the ability to pay those claims even faster. That's not going to change. That's what our industry is built on.
Camilla Serna: I'll dovetail on that, delivering on the promise in minutes as opposed to hours or days. And so making it more instantaneous to fulfill that claim when it comes. But with human touch, when people need to speak to a human, because having a claim can sometimes be very traumatic depending on the line. And so we will get people back on their feet as quickly as possible with human touch when needed.
Ben Madick: It's a good question. Hard one to answer. But I think as an industry, we don't like taking risk. I joked about it before and I don't see that changing. I think taking on of risk is too uncertain for us as an industry and it shouldn't be that hard. We just need to make faster decisions once we take the risk and see the results. I think it's going to take at least five or 10 years for the industry to kind of really grasp that we got to take more risk to see the returns.
Fred Blumer: Five years in the insurance world, I don't know if this is a good analogy, but it's almost like dog years. I mean, five years is tomorrow in the insurance industry, so I don't expect to see lots of changes. But where I do see changes coming is in more tailored products to specific segments of the marketplace where consumers have indicated, look, this is how I want to buy insurance. So this is the type of insurance product that I want, and I think we'll see increasing flexibility by insurers of delivering a product that meets a particular consumer segment need much more nimbly than they do today.
Zaheer Hoda: I got to be a bit optimistic that hopefully in five years, onboarding new risks and new claims are you've kind of minimised the incremental cost, the marginal cost. That's the objective at the end of the day of I think the number is like 40% of what we're paying in premiums is more about the overhead versus which is this frictional cost due to onboarding risks. So how do you reduce that? So I'm hoping that the ability to move faster will drive that because then your marginal cost for every additional risk, which is similar, is much, much lower. I think that's the pattern, the learning, the self-learning that would have to happen within an organisation to make that happen.
Idan Tamir: Thank you. So we got to the last question, which is more a call for action than a question. So what's one key message or action you'd offer to insurers, startups or investors as we step into the next era?
Nicholas Chen: Two things from my end, one building on to what Zaheer was saying throughout on the workflows. I think one thing that we didn't do in 2.0 that is really important 3.0 and is exactly what we're doing today with all of our clients is really reinventing the work. Like a lot of times we took the as is and we put it into new tech and it just didn't work. We really look into that and see how we reinvent. The second thing is talent. And it's not just about bringing in new capabilities, but talent related to also trust, which is internally one of our biggest limitations and how fast we're going to be able to move in a Agentic AI 3.0 and so forth is actually us in the organisation. Do we trust the technology? Are we afraid that we're going to lose our jobs or various other things that will limit us from moving? So I think that talent and also that trust is really important.
Camilla Serna: I will take it in a different direction, back to product personalisation and also fractionalisation so that it is relevant at the right time for the right consumer, which will be enabled by everything else that you're saying behind the scenes, both the talent and the way that AI is leveraged. But it's how do we make sure that the insurance we offer remains vital and relevant to what the consumers, small businesses or even the largest corporations in the world be?
Ben Madick: First call to action, probably have more fun. I think that it's hard to keep in mind, like this should be fun and big data, big analytics, big tech. Like these are fun things to be working on. I think we lose sight a lot that should be more fun.
Fred Blumer: I like that. Fun. So my call to action for the industry would be quit thinking like an insurance company all the time. There are so many things we can learn from other segments of society and the temptation to do things a certain way because the industry has always done it that way is very tempting. It's very safe. And big companies always said nobody gets fired for doing nothing. But I would just recommend that the industry think of things that have nothing to do with insurance, but maybe make life better, make life more enjoyable, maybe make life more fun and bring those into the insurance world and apply that to what we do for our customers today.
Zaheer Hooda: First, I got to agree, Ben. I like fun. It's like enjoy the ride. There's a lot of cool things happening where we're starting to see impact. Again, the hopefulness, the optimistic aspect is things do change, but it is a fun time. The specific call to action, I think I'll go back to when I was touching on the self-learning point within carriers and companies is it's like the connective tissue point of we often, as an example, when we show our platform, it has AI-based underlings. Right. So the first question they ask or most folks ask is, do you have feedback loops? How does everything connect? I would ask that question back to the organisation, right? Like how does claims information get to the capturing and being able to capture where the humans are plugging in to today's tech and where they're having to play a role and feeding that back in is going to be one of the more important elements. As we get into this AI, Agentic AI, because once you have that, then you can learn from it and grow and keep changing. And that's self-learning. So that's like connective tissue across the organisation.
Idan Tamir: Okay, so thank you everyone for such an amazing and for such an insightful panel. And I hope this conversation sparked some new ideas and will create new connections in the future. So let's keep the momentum and enjoy the rest of Insurtech Insights. Thank you all.
Juan de Castro: Making Risk Flow is brought to you by Cytora. If you enjoy this podcast, consider subscribing to Making Risk Flow in Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast, so you never miss an episode. To find out more about Cytora, visit cytora.com. Thanks for joining me. See you next time.
